Helen Goodman

In her capacity as Deputy Leader of the House of Commons, Helen presented the Government’s proposals for modernising the House of Commons in a lively debate in the Commons chamber.

Helen said:

“It is a great privilege to respond to this debate, in which so many hon. Members have spoken with such great passion. I congratulate all those who took part in the Modernisation Committee’s work, both those who gave evidence and Committee members.

I would like to draw Members’ attention to two particularly illuminating pieces of evidence. The first is the memorandum submitted by Professor Philip Cowley from the university of Nottingham. In both his oral and written evidence he touched on the myth of the golden era and the fact that Back Benchers are much more assertive now than they have been at any
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time since the mid-19th century. When describing the rebellions in the past 10 years, he said:

“Such behaviour has continued since the 2005 election. Within the first year of its third term, the current Government were defeated four times in the House of Commons as a result of backbench dissent. No other post-war government with a majority of over 60 in the House of Commons suffered that many defeats in so short a time. Labour…dissent in the 2005—06 session ran at the rate of a rebellion in 28 per cent. of divisions”.

I understand that the rebellion on the Iraq war was the largest since the difficulties that Peel had with the corn laws. We need to avoid engaging in too much myth making. It is clear, as Professor Cowley says, that Back Benchers are themselves strengthening their role. Clearly, the era of sycophancy is dead.

The second piece of evidence was given by one of the Deputy Speakers, Sir Alan Haselhurst. He most interestingly pointed out that the amount of time available to Back Benchers in Westminster Hall is more than 300 hours, which is almost three times what they had under the previous procedures. It is important that we have a realistic picture of what is going on, because that will allow us to make realistic and sensible improvements to our procedures.

I turn to the amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May). She welcomes the proposed introduction of topical debates and topical questions, as I believe did every hon. Member who spoke, but she is asking the Government to publish on a regular basis—fortnightly—as a written ministerial statement, a record of what representations have been made. I think that what she proposes would be rather inflexible. That is not to say that it will not be necessary to look at how we can be open about what hon. Members have requested, but something as restrictive as a written ministerial statement every fortnight would probably prove impractical.

Mrs. May: I want the Government to make three commitments about topical debates. First, I want them to find a way of making known to hon. Members the subjects that have been proposed. We would thereby be able to see what decisions the Leader of the House took in choosing a subject. Secondly, I want the Government to find a way to enable Back Benchers to nominate subjects, so that topical debates are not discussed and determined only by Opposition and Government Front Benchers. Finally, I want the Government to commit to ensuring that topical debates do not eat into Opposition time.

Helen Goodman: We entirely accept the principle set out by the right hon. Lady; the matter really boils down to the modalities of how the information should be produced. We are completely open to Back Benchers nominating subjects, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House pointed out that they could do so at business questions. If we have topical debates, the whole timetable will inevitably have to be looked at. At the moment, I am not in a position to say that all the time allocated to topical debates will come out of Government time.

Mrs Goodman: The right hon. Member for Maidenhead said that she wanted topical debates to go beyond departmental silos. That is a very sensible proposition, and the matter will partly be in the hands of those who suggest the debates as well as those of the Leader of the House.

Mrs. May: I am grateful for the Deputy Leader’s generosity in giving way, but I want to pick up on her saying that she cannot guarantee that topical debates will not be taken out of Opposition time. The point of such debates is that they give Members of the House greater freedom and increase the opportunity for debates that are not led by the Government. If they merely replace Opposition day debates and the time set aside for them, the House will be no better off.

Helen Goodman: I did not say that topical debates should replace Opposition time. I said that we will have to look at how the whole week is reshaped and that I could not guarantee that there would be no slicing of any Opposition time.

The right hon. Member for Maidenhead asked us to review the use of Westminster Hall, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House said that she would do so.

My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) spoke about the work of the European Scrutiny Committee. I attended a sitting very briefly yesterday, and it is clear that it does its important work extremely well. However, it is also clear that the processes are inadequate, which is why the Government are committed to looking at them again. It is also why we accept the timetable offered by my hon. Friend and other members of the Committee.

Many hon. Members spoke about the importance of induction, and we can all agree that that needs to be improved. Obviously, induction is not primarily a matter for the Government, but I understand that the Board of Management and the parties are already discussing how it can be improved. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) intervened on that point to say that we should increase the gap between the election and the return of Parliament. In our written response, we say that we are prepared to consider favourably a probable doubling of the amount of time that has elapsed between the election and Parliament’s return in recent years.

The hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) spoke about the role of Select Committees and the importance of debates on Select Committee reports, as did the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young). We do not believe that there could be sensible or coherent debates on reports before the Government had had an opportunity to respond, but we have agreed to look into a more measured timetable for considering them.

The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire suggested that such debates should be on substantive motions. However, votes in Select Committees might have the opposite effect to the one the right hon.

Gentleman wants. If Members knew that they would have to take part in whipped votes, it could destroy the bipartisan approach that most Members take in Select Committees and which produces such high quality scrutiny.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) welcomed topical debates and gave us a good analysis of the accountability gap at regional level. With the Modernisation Committee, we are looking into regional accountability and the forms that can be used to deal with it.

The hon. Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Binley) made a passionate speech about multi-tasking and electronic devices and spoke to us as I often do to my children when I think they are not listening properly. On the emotional level, I am entirely sympathetic to the hon. Gentleman, but the Modernisation Committee, for all its weaknesses, is an all-party body and recommended those small changes. The Government have accepted the recommendations but it is for the Speaker and the House authorities to look at the practicalities, which will in part address the issue of disturbance to Members.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby), who is a member of the Modernisation Committee, spoke about multi-tasking, regional Select Committees and the benefits of topical debates.

The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), who is the Chair of the Procedure Committee, gave a sensible speech and his Committee produced a sensible and helpful report. We agree with most of its recommendations. From time to time, the use of petitions needs to be reviewed and, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows, in the 1270s Edward I had a special initiative to increase petitions because then, as now, the Government had a rosy picture of their performance and needed to be reminded of how things are perceived.

The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and the hon. Members for Aldridge-Brownhills and for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) all spoke on important matters of principle—very sincere they were, too. The hon. Member for Macclesfield spoke about programming. I would like him to look at paragraph 122 of the report, where the evidence shows that programming has not had the dire effects that he described.

I would like to conclude by commending the motions to the House”.

You can read more of this debate <a href=”http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm071025/debtext/71025-0008.htm#07102552000001″>here</a>